Statement This guy here Physical Cleave Build - 10 Attacks per second, nicknamed 'The Blender' claims that he penetrates enemy's armour with his Dual Cleave with two fast swords. Information from the wiki From what I know, which is information I got from the wiki, Armour value in PoE the heavier the hits are, the more you penetrate from enemies armour value. I made this clip here How Armour works in Path of Exile in which I pretty much explain the information from the wiki and give a few examples. Also made this google docs file in which you can calculate for how much dmg you are going to be hit if you know enemy's phys dmg and how much armour you have or you can calculate how much is the original enemy's physical dmg if you know how much life did he hit you for and how much is your armour value Armour calculation So is it true? that you are going to penetrate enemy's armour using two fast weapons, with 1.65 base attack speed, + cleave which reduces the physical's damage with 40%, Wiki link - Cleave ' + Multistrike, which: ' So if he does 130 dmg per hit it will be reduced by 40% and then another 40% = 36% of the original one handed fast sword's original dmg. If THAT penetrates enemy's armour, what's the point of slow, heavy hitting two handed weapons? I would alsways go for fast ones because of the faster animations -> I can quit my attack at any moment. Last edited by RG_PankO__ on Jun 2, 2013, 1:41:28 AM | Posted by RG_PankO__ on Jun 2, 2013, 1:40:39 AM |
Posted by SL4Y3R on Jun 2, 2013, 1:44:37 AM | |
I think 4k or something in average. Maybe he penetrates the armour of skeletons (they have no armour) but i dont know his dmg | Posted by sanleon on Jun 2, 2013, 1:48:17 AM |
I believe 'reduced' is subtractive and 'less' is multiplicative. So if someones weapon does 100 damage and they have +40% physical from passives or str of what not, cleave with 40% reduced physical would reduce that to +0%. Then multistrike has its multiplicative 40% less bringing the damage to 60. | Posted by on Jun 2, 2013, 2:20:13 AM |
' Absolutely correct. Didn't think about that. Anyway, is it normal to penetrate enemy's armour with fast (slow means heavier hitting) one handed (two handed means heavier hitting) swords (axes have higher phys dmg)? Whats the point of the two handed weapons then :/ | Posted by RG_PankO__ on Jun 2, 2013, 3:52:41 AM |
Sadly without knowing how much armour mobs have there isn't any clear way to know that doesn't involve some guessing. . If we knew how much they had we could just run it through the equation :- kind of wish we did know how much armour they have! | Posted by on Jun 2, 2013, 4:47:55 AM |
Well, here's the difference. With fast attacks, phys dmg nodes don't affect your base as much. So you get less per node investment. Not only that, but you're also dependent on BM. Whereas with slower heavy hitting attacks, this is not necessarily the case. Slow large phys attacks also gain a ton of dmg from hatred aura, where fast attacks do not. | Posted by SL4Y3R on Jun 2, 2013, 6:48:24 AM |
' White Battle Corsairs in merciless Docks (post-buff) have max 241 armor :D. Too lazy to grind up a Resolute Technique guy with adequate physical gear to investigate high level maps, but it wouldn't surprise if the armor values are a lot less than 4k. Check the evade and accuracy of docks mobs, they were not far too different from each other (567-709 acc & 4081-4826 evade across all white mobs in docks) so I would be suprised if any other mob in docks has far higher armor than 241. This message was delivered by GGG defence force. | Posted by mazul on Jun 2, 2013, 6:52:45 AM |
Have him remove added fire and hatred and then realize the actual truth about cleave + multistrike. | Posted by drakar8888 on Jun 2, 2013, 7:48:02 AM |
From what I have heard, all monsters have around 900 armor. I forget what the actual # is, but all.monsters have exactly the same amount of armor. It does also work exactly the same way a players amor works. This is also the reason physical builds are amazing late game, they basically make the armor worthless. | Posted by Fb62 on Jun 2, 2013, 7:51:52 AM |
@Snorkle_uk Thanks for showing the gear. Now I got the complete picture. I did the math and it checks out. This is really impressive. Especially that pair of gloves is pretty GG. There is no similar gloves available even in Standard. If you can pull this off, there's no reason to go to templar area and do crit staff. This seems more tanky. Damage is not a problem for this build. IMO stacking defenses is better than stacking life and relying on flasks for defenses. If you only have life, and for some reason you're out of flasks, you're f***ed. Also if you don't rush through maps like there's no tomorrow, you have downtime of flasks which means defenses. So yeah, I prefer having passive defenses than having conditional defenses. In the end I think I'll go the armor route, dunno if I will go all the way til 30k, or stop at 20k and get some evasion. Well it all depends of what gear is available. 200%+ life. This should do the trick ;) | Posted by on May 28, 2016, 4:06:38 PM |
Okay that was really sick gear set over there Snorkle. | Posted by Deleted on May 29, 2016, 4:16:28 AM |
Gloves like that need the flat 80 evasion bench craft to exist. The flat evasion/armour rolls on gloves are lower than the bench, so they cant drop that high. You just need to get either slink gloves or titan gauntlets with 100%+ defense roll and a free prefix. the boots and the amule ton that build are temp bits but the rest of its the last gear ud ever really need for sure. Everything on it could be upgraded, there isnt a single bis item but its already well past the point where its fairly meaningless to get another 20% res here and bump this prefix up a tier or 2 there. You get gear like that because you can, basically, at some point and opportunity comes along and you take it because why not? Theres never a need, and with that in mind I will continue to upgrade it if the chance comes my way simply for the fun of it. Sutff like the belt, you can get a mirrored one, forget the names of them, mind bond? costs what to mirror those? 240 exalts including fee? More? Mine cost less than half of that, and you would never notice the difference. Beyond that though I know I could replace my belt for 10 chaos and still not notice the difference. Switch the 6L disfavour for a 5L 400pdps vaal axe though and for sure you are going to feel that downgrade. With melee buy smart, make sure youre res capped for sure but then forget how pretty tri res is and just get good defensive prefixes on gear for as little as possible. If youre using devotos u can get a tri resist hat, even a goldrim for ele weakness maps, forget overcap on the main gear. That marauder used to be sword + shield before juggernaut came along, the 2h axe cyclone was a ranger. I used to use evasion boots and a high armour shield, you can still do that and have say 17k armour + 13k evasion there abouts without breaking the 1 chaos per rare slot budget or using juggernaut. something like this if your interested in general melee build ideas. https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/AAAABAEAAQBeAecCEQMnBS0ILg2NEPAS4RQgFE0UcRiRGY4aPhpVG6obrRv6I9Mj9iXfKCopLi5TL8wwfDGwNug94j38QzFE0kd-SO5KfUz_TUZNkk4qUEdTu1hjW69fP2EhYuxjF2VNZ6BvJ3TteK55OXrvfLh9dX7igTqCB4TZhO-HdojtivCLT4zPjX2XeZpqns2i6qOKo-ekGacwqfqxs7YsvJ-9Nr6nv9XBB8GCxFjEgsbYypDL9dIh02_TftRS137ZfNrB3L3h7-Of5FHnD-lG6dXtg-4O7w7yQfJa9kj8S_zF_ro= you can do that as a marauder, duelist or ranger, swap swords for axes or maces. If you go juggernaut with a build like that youre going to end up with something like 35k armour + 13k evasion, or you can go evasion shield and get 23k armour + 20k evasion. Honestly though that would seem a bit of a waste, evasion starts getting really good around 8k, very good at 12k and then you start stacking an extra 5k on and getting very little back really. Armour seems similar when it gets into the 20k+ range, Im not sure Id bother stacking beyond about 25k in practice unless I had no access to evasion. Shields with this setup end up with 40-50% block chance too though which is yet another layer of taking all the incoming attack damage and just brutally chopping it down by massive amounts. You could do this with gladiator and have that applied to spells, use a rumis flask to cap on demand, would seem a far better aspect to add in than going jugger with a shield and simply pushing already strong armour further into overkill amounts. Or maybe you do go jugger but with a saffells or an aegis that doesnt just bring another 1400 base armour but adds an entirely new defense mechanic that way. | Posted by on May 29, 2016, 10:53:12 AM |
Such a nice character :p, gg. I was tempted to try a juggernaut hegemony too, but it seems really hard to figure a decent tree. My attempt was stretched way too much to the north to get decent life and defense (and dmg nodes). Ranger builds list: /917964 When two witches watch two watches, which witch watches which watch? If the witches watching watches watch the same watch while you watch which witch watches which watch, they switch watches; then, the watch switching witches watch which watch you watch. Watching witches watch watches is not for the faint of heart. | Posted by Panini_aux_olives on May 29, 2016, 11:41:21 AM |
Life> armor Spike dmg is never phys dmg. Trust me phys dmg is not a problem in the game and even where it can be harsh for ES builds, you still have more than enough armor to not care about it because those are mainly fast small hits, which you shrug off with 10k armor. Check my juggernaut, it had around 7k life and was practically immortal, could have been way better if I leveled it a little further to grab blood magic and that extra juicy 35% life, but was still good enough. And if you still don't believe me, just think about fortify, enfeeble and taste of hate(which you could legitimately use on a melee phys build), those allow theese practically naked casters/ eva builds to take any kind of hits. 4.0 patch notes * Armor sources have been replaced with condensed milk. Players can't feel the difference at all Last edited by krenderke on May 29, 2016, 2:36:41 PM | Posted by krenderke on May 29, 2016, 2:33:31 PM |
' I have to disagree. As for out of flasks, that's what the retch is for. I dont run out of flasks. I kill bosses before my flask duration is even half finished. Clearing moderately fast to keep flasks up is a joke with quicksilver's of adrenaline, onslaught, and the move speed from retch. I could go down by 2k life and not use a Kaom's heart and get a shit ton of armour. However, just think how much armour I need to mitigate 2k worth of life. And suddenly I'm vulnerable to getting oneshot, which you quite aren't with 9k, unless you decide to tank Malachai/Dom/Vaal smashes. Not to mention bearers. Fucking bearers. What about maps with added ele damage. Ele reflect. I should mention, I'm immune to any reflect with flasks up, which is always. I simply don't need to invest in armour, because fortify, taste of hate, basalt flask, endurance charges, LC, blasphemy enfeeble, they do the job better for barely any investment. Or rather have a much lower opportunity cost. For try, for see, and for know. This is a buff Last edited by Etherfire on May 29, 2016, 8:59:12 PM | Posted by on May 29, 2016, 8:55:37 PM |
' Have you ever been hit by a rare giant skeleton in a high map ? Have you ever been hit by core malachai regular melee attack on first phase ? Have you ever tried to take down a pack of blue porcupines at close range in a high map ? I have more examples but not enough time to input them. If you haven't tried some of those yet, do it, cause you'll probably come back with a different opinion. All damage types have their spikes in Wraeclast, exile. PLEASE QUOTE ME IF YOU ARE EXPECTING A REPLY ---------------------------------------------------------------- xhul filter : https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1787522 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Posted by xhul on May 29, 2016, 9:38:29 PM |
' Have you ever tried to play without facetanking unnecessary, easily dodgeabe things? 4.0 patch notes * Armor sources have been replaced with condensed milk. Players can't feel the difference at all Last edited by krenderke on May 30, 2016, 3:31:43 PM | Posted by krenderke on May 30, 2016, 3:31:36 PM |
' ofc i did. and these are not the problem first off - i do not use unwavering stance so i can evade like 50% of these hits (with flask, but i know how to use flasks). then my end charges and flasks protect me from remaining damage (ofc i manualy dodge the telegraphed stuff because why shouldnt i? there are no points for 'facetanked Core Malachai slam' achievements) and i do not burn my end charges on .003sec immortal call cast randomly by TheLazyCOmbo. but what will kill you is the same list of mobs in a map with 'added XX% damage as EVERYYYYTHING' because then the precious armour armour-stackers value so highly is USELESS. esp when they took US and are hit with pretty much everything that look at them funny (looking at you Porcupines) POE defence mechanics are complex and using one and only one is a mistake that leads to one demise | Posted by sidtherat on May 30, 2016, 8:38:46 PM |
' True enough. I agree, there are plenty of physical damage spikes. And those are where you need armour the most, and where it fails the hardest :D That's why you see snorkle stacking so much evasion along with armour. | Posted by on May 30, 2016, 8:50:49 PM |